Just Started (Koike Minami, blt graph vol 58)
A masterful performance. The center position. Needless to say, the sight of her dancing, sometimes fearlessly, sometimes with a smile on her face, struck a chord with me. But she was not in the least satisfied. In fact, she even exudes the frustration of a failed performance. It is precisely that self-critical attitude, that has been her motivation.
During the online livestream concert “KEYAKIZAKA46 Live Online but with YOU!” held on July 16, Koike-san filled the center position for “Ambivalent”. I was fascinated by your imposing performance, and at the same time, I was once again reminded of just how much the impression of a song can change depending on the center. What kind of conversation did you have with the choreographer, TAKAHIRO-san, approaching the concert? Please tell us about that to begin with.
Koike:
In the beginning, we were told that since we will be announcing our group’s renaming at the end of the concert, we were going to go back to basics and perform the original version of “Ambivalent” that we did with Hirate (Yurina) as the center. I understood the intention, but to be honest, I wasn’t sure if it was really going to work. During Hirate’s absence at the end of 2018, we performed “Ambivalent” with a different center for each music program we appeared in. Since we changed the center’s choreography for each member’s version at the time, I asked if I could also get a unique choreography if it would not be a burden for TAKAHIRO-sensei. And so he came up with one for me in spite of his busy schedule. The choreography is based upon the amalgamation of all of the different versions of “Ambivalent” performed so far by each of the centers, but TAKAHIRO-sensei told me that ‘ultimately it is up to you to come up with your own theme and add your distinctive colours to it’. However, I still had a lot of trouble deciding what to do after that… and in the end it became the kind of performance that you saw during the online concert.
That “Ambivalent” was really cool, and through your expressions and gestures, I felt that the song had a somewhat teasing, mischievous dimension introduced to it that we’ve never seen before. I thought that it’s as if it was the embodiment of all of your four years of accumulated experience as a member of Keyakizaka46 and as a person. It was without a doubt, the ultimate performance that would make you scream “This is it! This is Keyaki!” upon seeing it.
Koike:
This live concert was the first that we’ve held in a long time, and for our fans, the first time seeing us perform since the “Kohaku Uta Gassen” at the end of last year, so I thought it wouldn’t be surprising if they looked at us with more critical eyes than usual. And for the other members as well, while there were various things that we wanted to try out after the stay-at-home period, the feeling that ‘we wanted to do a live concert first and foremost’ became so strong that I think we let those emotions all out during the concert. It was the most desperate I’ve ever felt, as if I was clinging on for dear life. It wasn't so much that we had a particular theme in mind, but rather that we just wanted to give the performance our all. Those are the kind of simple, straightforward feelings that we had, I think.
You simply wanted to fulfill your desire to perform, but when that day arrives, the countdown to the end of Keyakizaka46 begins... Even as an outsider, I can imagine that there were surely ambivalent feelings about that. With that in mind, can you tell us what motivated you to keep rehearsing until the day of the concert?
Koike:
We all knew that we were going to deliver the message that ‘we will be putting an end to the group called Keyaki’ at the end of the concert, so everyone was teary-eyed right until the start. But the audience didn't know that and I’m sure they were really looking forward to watching Keyaki’s live concert, so we had to hold back the tears. And on top of that, since the first song was "Taiyou wa Miageru Hito wo Erabanai", my heart was filled with so much emotion that made it almost painful. When we heard that our group was going to be renamed, I think we all felt uneasy, and there were members who couldn’t accept it at first. After many rounds of discussions with the staff members, we began to look forward towards the future, but when the live concert was finally about to begin, the feeling that ‘our days as Keyaki are numbered’ suddenly became a reality. I got scared thinking about how our fans would react to it, but I set those fears aside and focused on reaching them with the way we are right now, and with the desire for them to see the possibilities that the future holds for all the members.
By the way, what did you think when you first heard that Keyakizaka46 was going to change its name?
Koike:
It was a pretty superficial feeling at first. I thought “Oh… We’re getting renamed,” like it was someone else's business. Then, when speaking to the other members, their individual thoughts and feelings infiltrated my mind and for a split-second I thought that I didn’t want the name to change. Having been part of Keyakizaka for five years, I have a lot of memories and strong feelings for the group, so changing its name feels a bit... But it's also true that the name Keyakizaka doesn’t just give a good impression. We love the name Keyakizaka and are attached to it and feel that we want to cherish it, but if we were to continue our activities with the same name, we would inevitably be compared to the Keyaki of the past. And if the name were to be tainted by negative perceptions, we may end up not liking the name Keyakizaka anymore and it may turn into a painful thing for us. I absolutely did not want that to happen, and in order to leave our cherished name behind untarnished, my feelings changed during the rehearsals for the online live concert and I felt that perhaps the decision to rename the group is necessary.
It's only been five years, yet it is still five years.
Koike:
Yes indeed. (Harada) Aoi, who was in her third year of junior high school, has turned 20 (laughs). There were members who graduated during that time, and memories that I made together with them. When it comes to Keyakizaka, I think the impression of Hirate inevitably comes to mind. But I didn't want to superficially compare things between the fact that Hirate is or isn't there, nor did I want others to compare us that way. Even if we were to live in the present, so long as people didn't see us like that, we would always continue to feel distressed. We don't want our past to be distorted, so if that were to be the case, we would rather close the curtains by our own hands and bring Keyakizaka to an end as a beautiful memory. That's how I felt when I came to accept the name change.
Captain Sugai said during the MC towards the end of the concert, "We are saying goodbye to Keyakizaka in a positive manner," which I thought was an exquisite statement that made me fall to my knees. How did you yourself respond to Sugai-san's words?
Koike:
As I listened beside her, I thought that if I had been in Yukka's (Sugai's) shoes, I might have said it more bluntly. But she said it in a way that came across as gentle and easy to understand, winning over even our hearts. That’s one of the great things about Yukka, that she can say things in a roundabout way that makes it digestible. Additionally, I was glad that those words were not only gentle, but also conveyed a sense of strength. Personally, I was particularly struck by the words, "It was as if we were wandering through a tunnel with no way out," and I fully understood what she meant when she said, "There were days when I felt so tormented by the group’s name that it made me want to walk alone and cover my ears”. Having also been troubled by this for a long time, I felt once again standing there that ‘I’m glad Yukka is the captain’.
While it seemed almost inevitable that the message would be expressed in a much more emotional way, you thought that her choice of words and the way she spoke were just perfect, right?
Koike:
I wonder how I would have said it had I been the one instead. You would be spot-on if you thought that I’d perhaps have been a lot blunter with my words and that it might have ended up causing a lot of misunderstanding. But after the live performance, Yukka herself said in the dressing room, "There was so much more that I wanted to express, but when I stood there I became too nervous to say it”. I'm sure she wanted to convey in greater detail just how deep her feelings are for the group, and it must have been agonising to be the person announcing our name change to the fans. It's only natural that she would have mixed emotions... and end up not being able to express all of her thoughts. But even so, I want to thank her for summoning the courage to speak on our behalf with words wrapped in such kindness. I really do.
I think choosing the right words is a difficult thing to do. Especially in a place and situation like that.
Koike:
It's difficult. I think that there are many different ways of interpreting even the same words. But what Yukka said on that day was forthright with unambiguous words, and I felt like I was able to convey my feelings as well through her. Nevertheless, I don't know how our fans felt since I wasn’t able to directly see their reactions nor hear from each of them individually, but I'm sure they felt the same way as we did when we first heard about the renaming from the staff members. That’s what I’ve also been thinking.
To tell you the truth, when it was announced that Hirate and the others were leaving and graduating, I personally wondered if it might be a good idea to have the option to move forward as a different group. But when the time actually came for the group to be renamed, I ended up feeling sentimental about it... When you think about it like that, it's easy to imagine that it must have been a very difficult choice. And, well… setting aside the sentimentality on my end, how do you think you're going to go through your remaining days as Keyakizaka46?
Koike:
Our last live concert as Keyaki is scheduled for October, but when you think about it, there’s less than three months remaining. After the announcement, the fact that the group was going to be renamed felt real, but since we’re still continuing activities under the name Keyakizaka46, there were still a few times when I wondered if this (the renaming) was all really just a dream. We still don’t know what the concept of the renamed group will be like; it could be completely different from the current Keyakizaka, or it could also just be a small change. So to be honest, I feel more anxious than anything not knowing what lies ahead. It feels awkward saying this ourselves, but I think that what Keyakizaka46 has created in the four years since we debuted is different from the general image of idols we've had so far after all.
When “Silent Majority” was first released, I wondered what kind of impression it would leave and I was worried that perhaps the non-idol-like feeling of the song would be too strong. There were times when we felt that we were sailing against the wind, but we were able to overcome that and establish Keyakizaka’s image, so no matter what colour and what kind of songs we end up with for the renamed group, I’d like to press ahead once more with a fresh start. As we already possess a strong image, I'm prepared for it to be a rockier road than when Keyaki first started, but since the 2nd gen and the new 2nd gen members have an abundance of energy, I’m counting on them to keep breathing new life into the group. And for us 1st gens too, there are many of us who would like to be in the spotlight more often, so with this new group, I’m hoping to bring out more of our individual ‘uniquenesses’ than ever before.
I am deeply moved by your powerful words. On August 21, the 5th anniversary of the group's formation, Keyakizaka46 will be releasing its last single “Dare ga Sono Kane wo Narasu no ka?” as a limited digital release. What are your thoughts on this song?
Koike:
From the first time I heard the song, I couldn't help but feel that it was perhaps a message for us. I guess I took in the words from the protagonist of the song a little differently than our other songs so far. I thought that perhaps we've covered our ears from hearing things that we’ve been able to hear this whole time. I realized that it's okay to stop trying to solve problems on our own, and to listen more to what the people around us have to say. I felt that we may have unknowingly missed something important, and wasted time and effort in doing so.
Perhaps it’s because you and the members have grown up and become adults yourselves, that the song lyrics made a particularly deep impression on you? Do you think that might be the case?
Koike:
I think that's part of it. The remaining 1st gen members of the group have created Keyaki’s worldview together with Hirate and the members who graduated, but because we haven’t been able to look at ourselves objectively, there may have actually been things that we didn’t notice because of it. I think the lyrics of “Darekane” made me realize that.
If that's the case, then how the 2nd gen and new 2nd gen members feel about Keyakizaka46 could also be different, having been watching as fans of the group at one point.
Koike:
That’s right… but I’m thinking that maybe it’s only natural that it’s different. As the new 2nd gen members have only just joined, they must be feeling very confused about this sudden change. And even for the 2nd gen members who have been together with us as part of Keyaki for almost two years now, their feelings might be complicated in a different way than ours. So when I heard that the group was going to be renamed, I was more worried about the 2nd gen and the new 2nd gen members, than how I felt about it myself. In a sense, I felt that they perhaps had a stronger attachment to the worldview of ‘Keyakizaka’ than we did.
Do you talk about these things with the 2nd gen members... like Inoue Rina-san, who you get along with and is from the same area as you?
Koike:
While I do want to ask her about it, there’s a part of me that thinks it’s perhaps better not to do so. Whenever Inori (Inoue) wants to talk to me or ask me for advice on something, she’d typically ask me if it's okay to call. I thought that she would come to me if there was something that she really wanted to talk about, so I’ve been sort of waiting for it... but in this case, and it may be too late now, I think perhaps it would have been better for me to approach her instead. And it's not just Inori. I'm curious about how everyone else is feeling, so maybe I should gather the courage to approach them myself and hear what they have to say…
According to Morita Hikaru-san, it seems that the 2nd gen members have been talking about various things amongst themselves as well.
Koike:
Yes, I've somewhat sensed that as well. But they’re very mindful not to let us worry about them in front of us by being cheerful as usual. On the other hand, that also makes me think 'Ah, I'm making them feel the need to be considerate towards us...'
Listening to what you just said, I was reminded again… how Keyaki really is a bunch of clumsy people, for better or worse. But that’s also part of what makes it human.
Koike:
We also wonder sometimes, “Why are we so clumsy?” (laughs). But if we, the 1st gen members, show our anxiety, the 2nd gen and the new 2nd gen members will end up becoming more anxious as well, so perhaps it's better not to share our worries after all. That's how we think about it.
I see. You've spent five years in the idol world now, and you've likely learned and gained a lot of experience as an individual. Could you talk about that?
Koike:
Before I joined Keyaki, I don’t think I really understood people's feelings and emotions. But since joining, I’ve learned to bring out the different emotions from within, and it felt like I was able to discover a new me by coming to understand other emotions. Of course, it hasn’t always been fun and there have been difficult times too, but all of these experiences have made me a stronger person, and helped me push the group onwards. That’s why I want to continue to have confidence and pride in what we've built up over the past five years since we formed, and I hope to use it to fuel our future activities.
It’s also from witnessing that kind of growth this whole time, that I was unconsciously moved to tears from "Ambivalent" in the online live concert (laughs).
Koike:
Thank you very much (laughs). When they handed out the formation charts after the online live concert was decided, I briefly looked through them in order, like “Ah, so Habu (Mizuho)-chan is the center for “Eccen(tric)””, but I didn’t notice that I was the center for “Ambivalent” at first. I completely missed it. Then I was like, wait a minute, “Ambivalent” is also in the setlist, and when I looked at the formation chart again wondering who the center was, I saw that Inori was in my position. While thinking “Wait why!?”, I looked at the center position and saw my picture there. I was like “Huh? What!?” and panicked and freaked out at that moment, but since this was a live concert that all the members had been looking forward to, my thoughts changed to “I’ve got to do it!” right away.
From that day on, I listened to "Ambivalent" lots of times at home and watched the videos of the past performances of “Ambivalent” with ‘different centers’ and of course the version with Hirate as the center over and over again, studying everyone’s facial expressions and dance movements in a lot of detail. I thought that I would be able to feel everyone's thoughts again by doing so, and I was able to figure out what I could add to it.
I was left astounded by your expressions during the part where it was as if you were playing games with the camera and leading it by the nose. Like I said before, I thought that the alluring expression you made could perhaps be attributed to many things you’ve experienced as a person and as a member of Keyakizaka46.
Koike:
Back in the beginning, I was in the third row for “Saimajo” and “Sekai Ai (Sekai ni wa Ai Shika Nai)”, so I instead tried not to worry about my position. Because each position has its own meaning, I knew that I was going to perform with confidence no matter where I was. But the more I tried not to worry about it, the more it bothered me to be honest. Then when I thought that 'I want to stand closer to the front,' I got to the front row in “Futari Saison”. But I returned to the back once more in the following song… and when the ‘senbatsu’ (selection system) was introduced, I didn't get in and had a hard time dealing with it. However, as someone who had experienced standing behind everyone else and looking at things from the outside, I thought to myself that it must mean something to be given the center position for “Ambivalent” at such a time. So even though there may not be a link to the song “Ambivalent”, I tried to put all of the emotions that had arisen in me up to this point into the performance.
I thought that this is perhaps the ‘distinctive colours’ that TAKAHIRO-sensei had entrusted me with. In the early days, I used to focus only on the parts of the choreography that would get me a better position within the group, but somewhere along the line, I became less and less conscious of it. When I saw the members in the center position putting their heart and soul into expressing the songs, I realized that this was not the time for me to think only about myself and that I had to get serious about facing the songs. I came to feel that it’s not about interpreting the song in our own ways, but rather about understanding and interpreting the expression we are aiming for in the song as a whole from the center position and taking it on seriously together. I felt that the reason we were able to change from it not being a matter of someone leading and pulling the strings, but rather a matter of everyone sharing the same consciousness, is precisely because we’re Keyaki.
I think that’s something that those of us watching might say as well. I think my view of the performances has definitely changed ever since I realized that there is so much information that can be read from each part of the choreography. I think the fact that we have started to decipher what you are trying to convey through this song is a transformation brought about by Keyakizaka46. Do you personally feel a sense of accomplishment from this?
Koike:
There’s… none of that at all (laughs). Even after the online live concert ended, I was left with nothing but regret. Rather than feeling a sense of fulfillment or accomplishment that I made it through, the feeling of frustration was much stronger. So at the very least, I don't feel like I have left a mark on anything.
If anything I actually feel relieved to hear that. Because I can say that there are still a lot of things that Koike Minami needs to do.
Koike:
That’s really true. I feel that I have nothing but challenges to face. For example… when the online live concert ended with “Darekane”, I was able to walk normally when I exited the stage in front of the camera, but I was overcome with all sorts of emotions and lost all strength in my body after that. Perhaps it was from the frustration that I mentioned earlier, or a sense of relief from being released from the pressure. And so I ended up being unable to participate in the after-live special broadcast. I pushed myself too hard and as a result, I made the members and fans worry and I broke down in tears on the spot. I thought, “I'm not a pro at all”.
No, no, no… isn't that being far too self-critical, to evaluate yourself so harshly?
Koike: No, no, really. Even when I look back on it calmly, all I’m left with is the feeling that I wasn’t satisfied with my performance in the online live concert.
I see what you mean. I'll take it as a positive sign that that sense of hunger will be sublimated at your last live concert scheduled for October. Incidentally, I'd like to dig a little deeper into the word “convinced”, but what kind of discussions did you have with the other members before you eventually felt convinced of the decision to rename the group?
Koike:
In the beginning, we 1st gen members had a LINE group call, where we each talked about what our thoughts were about the proposal to rename the group. The topic of renaming had only just come up at the time, so many of the members were unable to accept it, but I was surprisingly positive about it from the start. I even wondered if I was just cold-hearted, so it was a bit difficult to say what I really thought. I knew that each member had their own feelings about the group and I understood why they couldn’t agree with it, which is why I told them honestly that I was relatively open to the name change, but as I listened to their thoughts, I started to have some doubts about it myself…
So there was a period of time since then when my feelings fluctuated, or should I say, my thoughts about it changed by the day. But when we talked again with the staff members included, they told us that “We want to hear what each of you are really thinking and feeling”. And so they responded to what each of us had to say sincerely and discussed things in a way that made sense to us, and I told them that I’d like to take a new step forward with the futures of the 2nd gen and the new 2nd gen members in mind. Even at that point, I don’t think that all of the members had been able to accept it yet, and when the rehearsals for the live concert started, I had a lingering feeling that I didn’t want to say goodbye to Keyaki after all…
Perhaps you still need more time to be able to fully come to terms with it. Put another way, I wonder if it’s something that time will help solve…
Koike:
I think everyone is still worried. If we can rid ourselves of those feelings, then we will perhaps naturally change. Personally, I’ve been trying to set goals for the next stage, as thinking about what I wanted to do next has helped reduce my anxiety. While I do wonder, “Am I cold-hearted after all?”, my juniors will end up not knowing what to do if I keep thinking pessimistically, and we won’t be able to move on unless someone looks to the future, so I try to think positively one way or another. We can’t dwell on the past, nor can we keep clinging to it forever.
When I had the opportunity to do a long interview with you last autumn, I felt back then as well that you have put your experiences to good use. Every time I hear from you, I feel that you are growing stronger and stronger as a person.
Koike:
One of the catalysts that made me change dramatically, was when I made my own decision to do the solo dance of “Futari Saison” at the finale of our 2018 Summer National Tour. I was the kind of person who never really expressed my own thoughts and feelings, who followed someone else’s lead and did what they told me to do, but that “Saison”’s solo was the first time that I had thought independently and acted upon it. I thought that I had acted selfishly, but having the fans and staff members tell me “That was good!”, gave me the courage to continue to act on my own thoughts. By realizing that there was nothing to be afraid of, I felt like I was able to come out of my shell.
Back then, I wasn’t sure if I was going to do the solo dance right up until the last minute. But I thought that if no one did it, it would have been extremely frustrating for us to not have made good use of the experience of members standing in as the center for each song during the “2nd Anniversary Live” when Hirate was unable to participate. And with it being the final day of the tour, when I thought about what the fans would think if they saw the center’s solo dance for “Saison” being left empty… I knew I had to go even if I might not be able to dance it, and left my microphone with Shiichan (Sato Shiori) who was next to me. She was surprised when I handed it to her out of the blue and I felt bad for doing it to Shiichan, and though the dance itself wasn’t right either, I just thought to dance it with all my heart. I don’t really remember much of the time when I was dancing, but I’m glad that I mustered up the courage to do it back then.
No... feelings are very important, aren't they? It's not like you were doing it half-heartedly. In that regard, I was really impressed with the way you put your heart and soul into the online live concert the other day. I could even feel your fighting spirit directly through the screen.
Koike:
Everyone had the will to do it, but the pressure was so great that there were some of us who were crying backstage before the concert began. Even that (Watanabe) Risa was crying. Risa isn't one of those girls who shows her feelings, but in that moment, she probably had a lot of emotions and thoughts going through her mind. She was so lovely.
Thank you for the wonderful story. In any case, I'll be watching until the curtain comes down on Keyakizaka46, and I'm ready to see what happens after that!
Koike:
Thank you. Um... I stood in the middle of the third row in "Saimajo" and played the role of "the Keyaki (zelkova) tree's trunk" in the first move (an action where Koike raises her arms straight up), didn’t I? That's why I want to continue playing that role, or should I say, that position within the group as the pivot to support everyone else.
Wonderful. But when you think about it like that, it seems that standing in the middle of that third row had a very significant meaning to you.
Koike:
At the time when we debuted, I didn't think of it that way at all (laughs). But the more I learned about the meaning of the choreography, the more I felt that maybe that was what I could do for the group.
Which members do you tend to talk about the group with lately?
Koike:
That I would go to Habu-chan when I wanted to have a deep conversation, is something that hasn’t changed for a long time. It's partly because we share similar opinions, but it’s also because Habu-chan is a good listener. She listens to what I have to say without denying or affirming it, and then tells me what she thinks about it in a straightforward manner. We often have heart-to-hearts with each other because the words come easily to us even when our ways of thinking are different and it broadens our horizons.
When we were both selected for the front row in “Garasu wo Ware!”, we talked about how we wanted to get the best out of each other, but there was a part of me that wasn’t able to come out of my shell. In fact, I was the only one in the front row of “Garasu~” that went down to the second row in “Ambivalent”. That was frustrating for me, and I started to think about expressing my feelings more. Perhaps that was the reason why I was able to dance the solo in “Saison”, so maybe around 2018 was a turning point for me.
As an interviewer, all I can do is look at a group's activities from an objective standpoint, ask questions of the members, and pass on words to them, but I shall continue to follow the path that you and your group members tread with my own eyes.
Koike:
Thank you. In any case now, I'm going to try to accomplish everything we can in our remaining days as Keyaki. Oh yeah, when I contacted my parents after the online live concert, my father, feeling lonely, said, “I don't want Keyaki to disappear!”. But my mother looked at it from a positive perspective, saying, “You get to try new things”. Both of these were feelings that I had inside me, so I felt that we were truly parent and child (laughs).
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